Murat Birsel : Welcome Dr. Zeynel Abidin Erdem.

Dr. Zeynel Abidin ERDEM : Thank you.

MB :
Almost everyone knows you. We have many viewers, especially in Ankara. Let me introduce you to our viewers.

ZAE :
Thank you.

MB :
Let us assume that an official group set out to the United States and they fly with an airbus which hosts the Prime Minister. The official group consists entirely of politicians, businessmen and journalists. During such journey, Prime Minister walks on the corridor and makes a brief speech about purpose of the journey to the United States. Also, Minister of Foreign Affairs talks and Ministers are asked about the visit. After such speeches, silence fills the plane...At this time; all of the experienced journalists stand up together and go to Mr. Zeynel. We ask him about the content of agenda, who will be there and who will be spoken with... What is the agenda? Although it is not known how much of the agenda is disclosed, Mr. Zeynel’s explanations are a very important reference for us.

ZAE :
Thank you very much.

MB : 
Today, we will talk about America.

ZAE : 
Sure.

MB : Because, you are the president of Turkish American Businessmen Association and currently, very important events take place in international setting, there are strategically relations, changes and also the United States’ image in the world is changing. Therefore, I would like to get your interpretations. Latest researches of International Strategically Research Group are also on the agenda. What are your comments on these issues?

ZAE : 
International strategically research institute is a very successful entity which produces accurate publications and provides correct information and also which rarely makes mistakes in its reports. Some realities cannot be concealed. There are some other hidden realities behind such unconcealed realities. They used a sentence that “The United States and Turkey are not lovers, but two friends anymore.” Turkey and the United States were not lovers. However, Turkey has still the capability and ability to be lover of the United States. However, bilateral relations followed a rough pattern during recent period. The newly elected parliament of the Republic of Turkey suddenly confronted the fire in the Middle East. They could not find sufficient time to comprehensively discuss the strategically decision to be made about this fire. Why? Because Mr. Erdoğan was not President during those times and Mr. Abdullah Gül tried to manage the issues without any discomfort. At that time, Mr. president joined the elections in Siirt. Excitement of elections combined with anxiety of war. The excitement of being President and, on the other hand, the hesitation of passing the decree of allowing American solders to use southeastern part of the country for Iraq war. I mean, Turkey faced an intensive political agenda and such decree could not be passed through the assembly. Maybe this “No” is beneficial for our country, but in my opinion, it is not. Because, every person killed on Islamic geography would be a sign of new grudge, hate and a storm in the future.

MB : 
It is profoundly true.

Z.A.E.: If Turkey had gone into Iraq with 50 or 100 thousand soldiers, many unfavorable events could be prevented and we could also find the opportunity to impose our arguments. Such tortures would be prevented, because Turkish soldier would not allow.

Ottomans ruled Europe for a period of 400 years and no one can talk about torture during this period. Frightening Ottomans reached Bosnia, conquered Romania and Bulgaria. They occupied ¾ of Hungary and entered into the half of Austrian lands, came to the border of Vienna. They offered gold in return of foods they ate. They did not force the governor of the conquered countries to demolish churches, nor they interfered their worship. They are a model empire, a model Islamic country to the world. We are talking about an experienced, cultured country, which embraced, rescued and allowed revival of Jewish people who were killed, burned, eliminated by the world. A country with 1000 years of military experience and culture, a country in which each Muslim tries to engender a friendly environment where peace overcomes hate and grudge. Today, America and Turkey are in very close friendship and such friendship could be achieved with Iraq, too. Why? Because, Turkey has also, a visible and invisible, disarmed on duty programs. When opposite side sees that you are disarmed, it would not react with arms. If you go with tanks, the opposite side reacts with arms, if it cannot find arms, like in Palestine, it throws stones. Namely, arm is everything, it is word, curse, stone, iron and also land, dagger, sword, bomb, rifle. All of these unwanted events would not have emerged if correct steps had been taken in the past. Currently, Americans battle on a geography of three different religions and languages or three different concepts. Half of Iraqi people are Shi’i. Then, Sunnis come with second largest population. Kurdi people have also the same size of population as Sunnis. When Americans leaved these lands in the future, they will not embrace each other. They wish to rule the same tent. In such a country, which is famous with underground richness and has been the focus of wars due to this richness, no one will say that Shi’s will use these lands and others those lands. No one will say that Sunnis are the majority group as in the past. However, our army who still bear the culture of Ottomans would easily resolve such problems through an agreement.

MB : 
And, currently, Iran also intervened. Nothing stays quiet. Many events managed by hidden powers are occurring on the background.

Z.A.E.: 
It would be tolerated if Iran were the all matter. Currently, an organized terrorism power consisting of 60 thousand people is being mentioned. A power who attacked two towers in the US is being emphasized. It has been mentioned that this power offer financing. Do you know how they offer financing? They finance with their soldiers killed, I mean the US face an organized power which exalts death. On the other hand, the same power also fights in Israel. If no solution can be reached and if Americans cannot create a satisfactory solution and please the people, those who think that they won would confront great challenges. The United States entered into Iraq, because it was deceived. America performed an intervention known and approved by all of us. Many of us opposed, but many of us also approved. They claimed of chemical weapons and we got uneasy. But nothing could be revealed, and something should have been said in such a situation.

MB : 
Well, do you think that White House or decision making mechanism of the US was deceived ?

Z.A.E.: 
Strategies of great states extend to 100 years. However, such great states faces important things to consider. You can beat, you can entrap your enemy by using your mind, but when your enemy is also human, you must consider to be entrapped. The day you are the most powerful is also the day you are the weakest. The day people think they are unbeatable is, in fact, the day they start to weaken. I do not imply the United States or any other country. Turn back to history and read the rise of Roman Empire. You will see that such great Empire suddenly weakened and squeezed into a tiny geography. Such a great Empire can disappear in 30 years. 30 years are not a long period for those times. Today, it is a very long period of time. Therefore, some events may reach different ends through the intervention of the opposite party. Only those peace efforts acknowledged by logic could reach success. No peace proposals, which focus on force, could succeed. As you know, Turkey won a war in the near history. Until recently, Turkey has been defined as a system and force which occupied Cypriot lands by force, although there are many Turkish citizens who are living and also were killed in the past. Today, Turkey proved its willingness for peace through its logical preference between Yes or No. And, Turkey has really shown the world that it entered into Cypriot lands for the purpose of salvation and still uses its best efforts to continue this salvation process.

You are deemed more successful and skillful as complaints of the opposite side become loudier. If Greek President or Prime Minister and President of Cyprus say, “The United States and United Nations betray us, they did not do us the same favor as Turkish side, they defended Turks”, this means that you are successful. This means that you are defended and you get the outcome. Why? Just because of your behavior. This type of behavior was appreciated in international setting. What type of behavior? Shaking hands, tolerating land offer, mutual understanding, orientation and willingness for peace. We illuminated the cloudy curtain.

M.B: 
At this point, I would like to ask you something. I had a type of habit during my TV programs; I look at eyes of people while I am talking to them. I mean, I have a habit of looking at eyes of those in front of myself. I came eye to eye with President Bush. He looks so harsh that those who look his eyes become frightened. I mean, he does not look like Bill Clinton. Currently, Americans are the ruler of the Middle East. Currently, they are also dominant on the world’s political geography. There are some events that should be dominated by someone. To whom such domination belongs?

Z.A.E.
Such domination belongs to those who govern you. You have to know that you cannot succeed by fighting with the powerful; such fight would meet your country with a disaster. I do not mean to sacrifice everything to achieve this. But, you can make favorable agreements without sacrificing anything you own. There are some occurrences in the Middle East that countries found themselves to lose everything they own. How; Americans realized that they were deceived. Despite this, the opposite side did not come to an agreement. Moreover, they insisted not to agree. How? You were accused of being terrorist. You were accused of possessing nuclear and chemical weapons. If you had opened the claimed areas to all the world when you called for research, your people would not lived this disaster. You must understand the dominant world. You should welcome the demands of powerful. You should also consider the future of your country when welcoming such demands.

M.B.
Mr. Zeynel, you pointed out a very important issue. Now, I would like to get your opinions about Turkey. When we looked at the point reached today, the United States wish to wash hands anymore. However, it also wishes to control Iraq, and looks for a formula for this purpose. I mean, I think that cannot Turkey find such a formula?

Z.A.E.
There is only one country, which has credit on the Middle East. It is Turkey. Turkey is a country, which is an indispensable ally of the United States for approximately 70 years, and also a country the United States actually collaborate in its projects for more than fifty years. Additionally, when you consider the geography of the Middle East, you cannot make the United States and Iran come to an agreement. This is also true for Syria. Saudi Arabia has run out its prestige in the region. You cannot reconcile them. Jordan is very small country. Morocco and Tunisia are not involved in these developments. The single focus is a Muslim and secular country, Turkey. Two duties are expected from the Republic of Turkey. One is mandatory the other is preferential. What is mandatory? What is mandatory is not to participate in policies implemented on integrity of both Iraq and Turkey and recent North Iraq incidents and terrorism wave. When you follow your will, you can succeed this. You face great problems when you utilize your will unfavorably. The end of this would be a disaster. Secondly, with high prestige, a population of seventy million, secular political system and strong army, Turkey can be a country, which arbitrates for peace in the region. With profound acknowledgement of democracy, Turkey can undertake a peacemaker role. The Prime Minister of Turkey was proposed the title of peace settler in the Middle East. This is a great honor. We want Turkey to be governed in this way.

However, there are mistakes made in Iraq. For instance, you cannot harm Hz. Ali’s tomb even though you are the United States, even though all the world, 6 billion people, support you. If it was wrong, you must correct it. If you intervened, you must satisfactorily explain the reasons why or how you intervened. Your power, force, bombs or aircrafts would not be sufficient to conquer the minds of people. It is not possible to gain power or succeed by power. Therefore, Turkey can settle this problem. An influential and prestigious Turkish Prime Minister must address the continuously bleeding wound of Israel. This was asked from us. We should forthwith accept the role of arbitrator and try to found a peaceful solution. Yaser Arafat made a big mistake at this point. Three months ago, former US president Bill Clinton visited our Prime Minister in economics forum in Dubai. An issue that should be discussed in 20-25 minutes, prolonged to 1 hour 40 minutes. And, Mr. Recep Tayyip Erdoğan said to Mr. Clinton that “I condemn these events in Israel. I also condemn attacks of Arabs to civilians in Israel as well as unbalanced power use of Israel. Please find a solution”. Mr Clinton said “We found the solution, but I faced with a frightening Arafat. I offered 39 % land. I offered the capacity of being a State and affixed our signatures. I made him sign this agreement by force. Despite all insistence of Israel, I talked to every single member of Israeli parliament”.

Gave up his decision on the last day. Do you know, whom did he fear? He feared from a tiny terrorist group. This is a reality. Although this opportunity runs away on that day, our President must not lat such opportunity to disappear again. I defend this because of benefits for Islamic world, because of stopping further crimes. Otherwise, the world would not achieve peace.

M. B.
I would like to say something; you are telling in such a fascinating way that I am just listening to you enchanted.

Z.A.E.
Thank you very much.

M.B.
You know these issues from both sides since you frequently go to US. You must be talking to people there about them. Here, we have something called “secret diplomacy”. The businessmen talk to with businessmen. The businessmen voice certain facts which top-level officials cannot. You are someone whose words we carefully follow. Do you think that if Turkey states that she will handle the problems in this region very carefully, that she will solve these problems, and act as an intermediary, will they accept this?

ZAE:
Recently I said something, which everyone in Turkey will be talking about in ten years. I am not a scholar, nor an oracle. I just analyze the events carefully, I listen carefully, I read carefully, and compare the present events with the past. Turkey has certain obligations to shoulder. Turkey must solve the issue of Northern Iraq. Turkey has been sharing everything with the Kurds living in Turkey for a thousand years. Many of us have Kurdish brides or grooms. We have lived in the southeast for a thousand years in peace, as brothers. No party disturbed the other. No party said a harsh word to the other. Then, how come such incidents erupted as if someone poured gasoline on a fire? Turkey failed to pursue a strong policy here. She should have made certain concessions; she should have made certain sacrifices. She did not, however. We are used to enjoy comfort in everything. We want Netherlands or Belgium to serve us. We want them to take us to European Union with no charge. We want everyone to stand up respectfully in our presence. Now I ask: Who are we to expect these? Our income per capita has not reached $ 5000. In other words, we are in a miserable state. On the other hand, our one and only characteristic, i.e. our geographical position, is very strong. We are very courageous. We have a great army, a democratic parliamentary system, a poor but proud nation. This definition suffices to prove ourselves to Germany, Great Britain, and France or to the entire world. When you operate from this definition, and if you have sufficient amount of time, there is nothing on earth to stop you. For this reason I feel compelled to repeat: Turkey has to be ready to be there when certain events erupt in Northern Iraq, and she has to intervene these incidents actively. I know that the government is also working on this plan. But I believe they have to spend more time. Now, let us turn to the essential things. Turkey must be in Baghdad because twenty per cent of every event that will take place there in the future will return to us as a loss. Therefore, stability must be established in our neighbors immediately. Otherwise, we will suffer a lot of damages along with them. For this reason we must stop losing our time by drowning ourselves in domestic issues, we must prioritize the resolution of foreign politics’ problems. We must see beyond the issues like YÖK (Board of Higher Education), we must not be carried away with such provocations. I would like to say a word or two about this YÖK issue, if you allow me.

M.B.
Of course.

ZAE:
I believe both the rectors and the YÖK chairman made a great mistake. This is their mistake: all around the world education is given in every religion, in every language, and in every desired form. The schools that all of the great statesmen in the world attended are Christian schools. Turkey did not bring missionaries and trained priests. There are foreign schools in Turkey: Saint Joseph, Saint Benoit, etc. Which school did you graduate from?

M.B.
Saint Joseph.

ZAE:
Did you become a priest?

M.B. 
No.

ZAE:
Did you make any effort to reform Christianity in Turkey?

MB.
No.

ZAE
Then why do we oppose so strongly to “imam hatip” (religious) high schools, which are in fact a version of theological faculties? And we are planning to join the EU this way! Where are the human rights and freedoms? We were going to speak Kurdish. We were going to sing in Kurdish. We were going to pray as our religion commanded. What is this fight for? The forces which make these a current issue and which initiate polemics about them must raise their heads and see that, at this critical time, wars are concentrating around the Middle East, and that their tricks are about to fail. We must stop wasting our time with domestic issues.

We must give our support to foreign issues, and solve them. Creating obstacles and keeping the country busy in this manner is an act of hostility against this country. I am not saying that they are being hostile. However, people who force every government and state to regress and make hem waste their time are our enemies. For this reason, Turkey must make efforts in relation to the Middle East as much as it did for the EU. The day Turkey has no authority in the Middle East; she will suffer political, financial, military and strategic losses. Today, her average financial loss is $ 12 billion. Many countries started their business operations in Iraq – from Austria to Australia. Turkey is still waiting to be allotted jobs. She is still working there as a subcontractor. And our share is not as much as it is announced. What remains to us is around $ 600- 700 million. $ 1.5 billion at most. This is what we get from a potential of $ 18 billion in a country with whom we share a border of 700 km, 100 years of relationship, and relatives. Is this what Turkish contractors should have got? Should we be getting $ 700 million? As a country we are unable to express our situation. This is why we cannot achieve certain things. Since we cannot achieve them, we cannot break this vicious cycle of poverty. And since we cannot break it, we fight with each other. And we forget about the world as we fight with each other. Even the smallest countries in the world have an income per capita of $ 18.000-20.000. However, we are still discussing about which language to talk, or about the “imam hatip”s. We should remember that Greece ranks 4th in the world human rights and freedoms standards. Turkey ranks 96th on that list. If you oppose to a concept which abuses religion, you waste the time of the country and the nation, create anarchy, occupy yourself with different agenda items, and cannot do anything in Iraq. You cannot enter the Middle East, the world, or the EU. This means that you are not worthy of talking about these issues [EU, etc]. Therefore, everyone in Turkey, from the villagers to the Prime Minister and the President, must think about how we can do better. We should not waste so much time with domestic issues.

M.B.
I want to add something. As TV8, we should take this interview, send it to any university that requests it as a CD, and they can use it as a course material, which, I believe, would be very beneficial for students.

At the beginning of the conversation, you said that we are friends with the US from now on. We are not lovers anymore. When people living in English-speaking countries say these words, they mean that the real relationship is almost over. When you say “we are friends from now on” you mean “Out of respect, I will say hello whenever we meet, but our relationship is over”. What would you like to say about this?

ZAE
Can I make a minor correction? I say Turkey and US are still lovers. On the other hand Strategic Research Foundation says that we are friends. There are certain things I know, and I say that we are still lovers. We must not end this relationship.

MB
This is much more promising.

ZAE
There are a lot of things that I know. Turkey and US are military, political, strategic partners, they are inseparable.

MB
We always talked about US, which does not mean that we cannot talk about Europe. As far as I know, you were awarded “the Commander of the Order of the Spanish Civil Merit” by the King of Spain in 2002.

ZAE:
I have been working in connection with Spain for almost 12 years, and I am the chairman of DEIK - Turkish Spanish Business Council. I made every effort to improve the relations between Spain and Turkey, without expecting any personal benefit from it. I worked with many people, either they be small businessmen in the farthest corners of Anatolia or the most prominent businessmen in Istanbul. I contacted with the King, the prime minister, the minister of industry, and even tribes and helped them do business. I helped them to make agreements, and to export and import goods. In return for my efforts, I was granted the Commander of the Order of the Spanish Civil Merit after both countries conferred to each other.

MB
What is Turkey’s situation in relation to Europe? Will they take us to EU?

ZAE
They will, if your lover or your friend is backing you. They will not take a country like us who has a different religion, a different language, a different geographic position unless it is supported by US. This is undisputed. However, if Turkey first privatizes Petkim, and changes her decision after a short while, people in Europe will stop and think. Previously we told them we had made many structural reforms. We assured them that we would shrink the state. We promised them that we would provide them a secure environment in which foreign investors could come and make investments, without fearing any intervention by the state or the courts. However, if you privatize Petkim first and then take it back from someone who is also your own citizen, who will trust you and come to your country to make investments? With which trust can they come and say “Turkey can be a member of EU since she reached our standards”? We have many obstacles ahead of us. However we will be a full member. If Turkey fails to make the amendments regarding human rights and freedoms, improve the laws, and make other changes, she will suffer great losses. Turkey should maintain its 40-year attitude of facing the west. I have great respect for Iran or Pakistan, I have great respect for all Islamic countries, but I want to be in Paris. My culture, my nature, my understanding must be secular and democratic. I cannot have any plans regarding future with Iran or Pakistan. The situation of Afghanistan is obvious. Or the Saudi Arabia. I am a European. I want to share the European culture, its power to make laws and to enforce them, its human rights and freedoms, its understanding of business, or the sharing of information. I want to reach its level of civilization and the culture of education. Therefore, I must be a European. I cannot be a Christian. My identity is obvious. None of my fellow citizens would consider such a thing. However, for those who want to convert to Christianity, there are no obstacles. This is a natural phenomenon. Between 2008 and 2010, we will be a member of EU. No later than that. If it is delayed, Europe will suffer a lot. For there is a great storm coming. There is a huge tsunami ahead of us. There will be a different war among religions and understandings. The intersection and reconciliation point of it will be Turkey. Turkey with her Muslim identity. EU will accept us because of this upcoming trouble. And we will make a lot of changes to benefit from these opportunities, and we are determined about that