Dr. Zeynel Abidin ERDEM- the Honorary President of TABA AmCham- Turkish-American Businessmen Association

Last week’s mutual conveyance of messages between Prime Minister Erdoğan and President Bush represents a sign of the expected softening in the Turkish-US relations. We got the government’s message. We are in contact with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. What does Mr. Deniz Baykal, the General Secretary of the Republican People’s Party (CHP) think about this? Several meetings I had with him for various reasons point out that his stand on this matter has never swayed. Following a king-size conversation on the phone, below is a transcription of the full conversation without interrupting his flow of words, which I assume will be real useful to convey our opinions to both Turkish and the US public and people, press institutions, columnists, political scientists and all journalists.

Dr. Zeynel Abidin ERDEM: 
As you should know, Turkish-US relations have been taken to a point for some time without a clear path; however, the Prime Minister’s warm messages on the heels of the recent support offered by the President Bush in the Armenian issue have made things certainly better. But we believe that the American public should get more coverage about this course of things, which obviously calls for more efforts. From the very beginning, you, being an all-time strategic supporter of these relations, have been maintaining a very constructive and decent stand in terms of Turkish-US relations. Would you please tell me about your very recent opinions on the subject?

Mr. Deniz Baykal, the Secretary General of the Republican People’s Party
Turkish-US relations bear much significance not only for Turkey, who seeks for peace and stability in this region, but for the USA because of its long-term expectations there. Turkey is a country displaying a very consistent foreign policy, which means that we always lay down our fundamental goals and we work towards it. Everyone knows about the huge struggle Turkey pursues to achieve the westernization, integration with modern world, and huge transformations and shifts required in this respect. As a Moslem-populated Middle East country, Turkey adopted the Swiss Civil Law, the French and German Laws at her own volition after translating them. While Europe was running around in circles under the threats imposed by the Naziism and the Fascism, Turkey faithfully marched forward in terms of attire and outward appearance, alphabet, overall government system, multi-party regime, democracy and human rights at her own volition. Let me tell you what makes us real happy: We were not sucked into the World War II. We are a Moslem society. But when it came to rebuilding Europe after the war, the then rulers of the USA laid down a very basic strategic goal: “Turkey should be a founding element in Europe to be rebuilt from its ashes” whereas there were several countries that fought in several fronts, paid off huge costs, were occupied, marched down and destroyed around Europe. A Marshall plan was introduced to make them recover and get back to their feet. Without being gripped in the jaws of a reactionary and punitive attitude towards us because we were not involved, and thus not occupied in the war, the USA pointed out us as a model because we had undergone huge transformations and changes, displayed a very resolute will to get integrated to the modern world, rising on the basis of very challenging decisions. Whether we fought in the war or not did not matter for them. The fact that almost whole population was Moslem did not matter for them. What we had achieved was a big event and thus they announced that it would be very inappropriate to keep these people out of the European Union, and thus admitted Turkey into the Marshall plan. This was Mr. TRUMAN’s history-making decision. This was a new vision of Europe. It was meaningful in showing that the USA wanted to see Turkey in this vision. I am talking about the post-second world war era. They did not hesitate in the least. That’s the basic meeting point which simply overlaps with the vision of Turkey as well as the Republican People’s Party and which is highly important in terms of relations between Turkey and the USA.

We were willing to shift Turkey into the modern world in those days. The US acknowledged the huge effort ongoing in Turkey in this respect. We had to embrace and support these efforts. We had to see them as the founding elements of the new Europe and they invited us as founder members of the European Council, saying that “when Europe was regarded as a legal, commercial, cultural and social formation, Turkey should be included in this formation.” Think a moment: After all these years since then, we are still discussing if we have a place in Europe. We did not discuss it with the US. The US declared us as a part of Europe from the very first day, a declaration well substantiated subsequently with the OECD and NATO formations. The US never tolerated efforts to destabilize Turkey. It was really important that Turkey should be on her feet as a powerful state during the Cold War era. What had to be done then was honestly done. We modernized our armed forces and took serious steps in line with NATO requirements, which were followed by advances in democracy.

The biggest support to Turkey in relation to the European Union and customs union was endorsed by the US.While we were waging a war against the PKK terror and many European countries were making things harder for us, the US adopted a more empathetic approach. And this means much for Turkey. We once again witnessed a serious empathy on the part of the US for overcoming the last economic crisis, and the US did not withhold its support to help Turkey shed off the effects of crisis. We all know these things, which are quite important and unforgettable. TRIVIAL DAILY EVENTS ARE TRANSITORY BUT WHAT ALWAYS SURVIVES DEEP INSIDE OUR HEARTS IS THAT SUPPORT, THAT EMPATHY.

The most disturbing thing for us at the moment is the potential danger associated with Iraq’s ethnic-based disintegration. This is a real worrisome matter. Notwithstanding the fact that there is not a clear policy in this respect, the course of things and circumstances point out that Iraq is running towards an ethnical disintegration. This is what worries us. We know that this disintegration will appear in other areas tomorrow, trespassing towards neighbor countries, more specifically, Turkey, This is not a desirable thing. This is not the way to make the region a more stable and peace-dominated place. In our opinion, this will not help uprooting the terrorism acts but rather pave the way for the emergence of ultranationalists, ethnical tensions and further terrorism acts, exposed countries and societies, which will surely result in a highly stirred land of confusion. This is what greatly disturbs us. We are not willing to see Turkey clasped in the vise of such a tight situation. Look please, we fought against terrorism for 15 years. Throughout that fight, the Anatolia territory has emerged as a stable, keenly anti-terrorist country where the rules of law prevail, with a high regard to international relations. If we were to fail in our fight against terrorist acts during the span of 15 years, if we were to yield to forces willing to have our hands tied in a way that suited many European countries, the eastern and southern provinces of Turkey would turn into a battleground, which would suit the intentions of terrorist acts in the best way, resulting in instability and complete eradication of peace and the supremacy of law and its effects would reverberate all the way through Iraq and other areas. We achieved a challenging task there and thus we are not willing to see any further instability in the region. This is more or less our foreign policy that we would like to see. Maybe Europe does not place much emphasis on these issues as much as we do. Look, the PKK-sourced terrorism is on the rise again. We really feel very disturbed as regards to that rise. We just ask that no chance should be given in this respect. We want a more resolute tableau where the promises are kept. If this is achieved and a mutual sense of trust arises, then everything will be different. This is our aim and guides us through our efforts. I hope all these things can be achieved in the months ahead. Our number one target in Iraq is to see that the country is stable again; to witness it acquiring s more democratic organization and to see that a more stable and permanent landscape takes place as result of the elections to be held by the year-end, and to develop warm and friendly relations with Iraq, thus giving our endorsement to the region’s stability and democratization process. Other than this, we are not in pursue of something else. We are not in the pursue of a strategic environment of battle nor we are keeping an eye in any other country’s territory for capturing purposes. We do not expect nothing from no one. We just want that the rights of Iraqi Turkmen people should be observed and respected. We are not eager to see that the reorganisation in Iraq is somehow based on economic support backed by Kirkuk. The whole Iraqi population has a right over Kirkuk. Besides, we would be very pleased if that area belongs to all Iraqi people. As we know, there were demographic shifts in the area. For the sake of restoring things to their former state, there were rather imprudent demographic movements. Turkmen people are almost non-existing now. The city is over-populated with Kurdish people. And what they demand now is that Kirkuk should be only theirs in economic terms, which is certainly unacceptable.

Erdem: 
The Kirkuk issue and other issues, ie, the negligence of Turkmen people, the representation in the parliament only with two woman parliament members...What is your opinion on Turkish government’s stand in relation to those issues? Is that stand a right one? Or should the government be more aggressive? Do you, representing your party, think to exert pressure on the USA on the grounds of failed promises? Do you plan to pay a visit to the US soon? The US people value your opinions. It should be noted that the Republican People’s Party is one of the cornerstone parties in Turkey. What you were initially arguing on these matters have all came true. I remember you said that “those ethnical groups will fight against each other and this country will not be able to elect a parliament tomorrow.” And the current Kirkuk issue just matches with what you had described then. All these things you have said already happened. Then what will happen from now on? Do you plan to get more closer relations with the US in your future stand? Or did you already wash your hands out of the matters, leaving them completely to the government’s hands? May I get your thoughts on this subject?

Deniz Baykal: 
Look, Mr. Zeynel, it is very unfortunate that our leaders failed to attain the required level of seriousness and consistency in their relations with the USA. In my sincere opinion, they failed to assume a very clear position and stand. The USA is a big country. One needs to be highly articulate and honest in relations with big countries. One should not try to mislead or misguide them because they are almost immune to misleads. We have to move in a resolute pattern backed by principles. Unfortunately, it seems that we have exhibited an all-time bargaining effort in our relations with the US and we have created an impression on them that we would do everything whatsoever if only the US advanced us required funds; which shows that we have stated that we have economic expectations in relation to the cooperation. This seems to be an ultra-wrong policy. We had to lay down the limits of our cooperation with the USA with due regard to the safety of Turkey’s stability and to our basic needs. We had to state what we could do and we had to be very articulate in terms of things that we could not, justified by our reasons. But our leaders rather acted in an haphazard manner as if they could do everything. But the outcome was not what they actually expected. THE USA OBVIOUSLY FELT CHEATED. This is a brand new thing in our relations, something which you cannot see in the past. We had to assume a very clear and transparent attitude in these issues, but there were enormous, almost history-making wrongs. This is the first thing that, in my opinion, the government has flopped. Well, besides, if you think that Turkey’s stability will be highly derailed, which results in our loss of influence, and if there were things that were beyond our capacity, then we had to talk about them to the USA in advance in a very articulate and well-drawn manner.It was highly important not to lead the USA into a ball of futile expectations. If you play in a promising manner, then you should do what’s to be done. You have to achieve it. Unfortunately, this was not the way on our side. We created false and phony expectations, promising much and delivering nothing

Erdem: 
Now there is a new topic on Turkey’s agenda, which is considered to be rather originating from Ankara, and which tries to create the impression that 83% of Turkish people are against the USA. There are some statistical figures by anonymous names and the results are published all time. The US newspapers, of course, pass these results to their readers, certainly helping the emergence of an unfavorable attitude against Turkey. We do not believe in the truth of those figures. Do you believe?

Deniz Baykal: 
It depends on what you are asking. I mean the manipulation in this way is almost a child’s play. I don’t see any well-justified reason to oppose Turkey’s alignment with the USA; it will just suffice if only an environment where mutual understanding and trust prevail is created on the issues disturbing Turkey. There is nothing problematic. Turkey always holds US people in high esteem, seeing the country as a new world, a new civilization. Turkish people on the street believe that the American people are well-respected folks that rise on their own success, guided by a very idealist pioneer spirit. It is not a realistic and right thing to argue that our people are feeling anything against the US citizens other than affection, respect and friendship. It is very wrong to claim that there is an ideological war. There is no sense in arguing and defending a thing that does not exist in the first place. We know that opinions expressed by some fractions and small groups are only contained to them. Those opinions have never been popular at a public level. Turkish folks always regard the USA under a clout of friendship. We fought with them side by side in Korea. We acted in unison in Somali and Afghanistan. The extent of our friendship has always been impressive. These are the basic feelings we nurture towards each other. OTHER ISSUES LARGELY DEPEND ON WHEN YOU ASK WHAT TO WHOM. THESE MAY BE SURPASSED. THE IMPORTANT THING IS TO START A FRESH, RIGHT AND SOUND RELATION ON A MUTUAL BASIS. THIS REQUIRES TO BE REALISTIC ON THESE ISSUES, TO PAY ATTENTION TO TURKEY’S SENSITIVE ISSUES AND TO PURSUE TURKEY’S RELATIONS WITH THE USA IN REALISTIC REALMS AND IN A HIGHLY RESPONSIBLE, PRUDENT AND CAREFUL MANNER.

Erdem:
The government remained silent for a long time and is now talking. Your comments?

Deniz Baykal: 
Now there is one further important issue that I would like to elaborate. I explained the first one when I talked about Turkey’s vulnerabilities in her relations with the USA. Let me tell you the second one: As I had stated, the expectations which we greatly helped in building were too high and we absolutely failed to meet them. Now the second issue: After a while another king-size error was committed in Turkey’s relations with the USA. What was it? There were attempts to create a feeling, a sense of enmity, a grudge against the US, which was nurtured on some courses the events took a turn in the Iraqi war. The government assumed an unfavorable attitude against the USA and exhibited a stand, trying to exploit these adverse winds blowing against the country. Of course it was impossible. It is really hard to agree with this stand because Turkish government has always been supported enormously by the USA, particularly, by Bush. The USA’s support and contribution to this government is undeniable. And that’s the reason why such sudden shift in the government’s attitude towards the USA in the first opportunity, trying to exploit the winds blowing against the USA, and coupled with some statements and accusations in this line in a manner likely to disturb relations cannot be accounted for, given the fact that the government was always backed by the USA. I mean profit and loss go hand in hand in these relations; you are by someone as long as you get a favor or profit from that relation but you suddenly try to put the blame on him if you are into a loss. This is not acceptable. This is not the way things go. President Bush has always backed Turkey on a thorough basis in good times and in bad times. That’s the reason why serious relations should be maintained with the USA. It is impossible for a government to talk grudges against someone if the wind blows that way and this suits the interests of the government....That’s not the way. But this was what Turkish government tried. Of course when the USA pressed its firm hand in some issues and Ms. Rice expressed this resolute approach in more than one way, the government understood things better and once more shifted their stand but this time in the better direction. Of course, the government’s erratic way of behavior raised some questions in minds: Is the government a reliable one? Is the government serious in their words? One can clearly see the pattern of things. The government incited the USA to act in a very watchful manner, creating an impression that the USA should always press its firm hand in some questions; keep the government under siege; check if there was any shift of manner under changing conditions. This was a result of a very wrong policy. Now we are the opposition party and we were always asked to give opinions on these issues. We always acted very diligently and carefully in this respect. We did not add fuel to anything that would contribute to an anti-American front. We have never displayed an anti-American attitude. We did not run to the squares; on the contrary we immediately issued unyielding orders on our organization, banning them from taking place in marches and mass demonstrations in this respect. And we firmly pursued this policy up to the very end because we are well aware of the fact that though there may be some problems between us and the USA, it is a country that we will eventually come together and work on the same side. You have to keep this chance alive with a right approach and prudence. And we have to always support it. This was our guiding policy under these circumstances. And we always expressed it towards our American friends in all our honesty whenever we had the chance.

Erdem: 
Do you plan to pursue this policy? Do you favor to maintain your relations with those American friends?

Deniz Baykal: 
Of course we had to stop somewhere, at some point. We never wavered or displayed hesitation in that respect. We always displayed a clear, transparent and sincere attitude for the sake of a serious relation. I always met the Honorable Ambassador whenever they showed a desire. Of course, relations were running much deeper in the past. I had sincerely expressed my worries and the likely course of future things to the then ambassador before the Iraqi occupation. Unfortunately my predictions came true. We have always been pursuing a honest, sincere and transparent policy and this will not change now. Of course we maintain our relations with the Americans which we can account for at any level. We have no doubt there and there is certainly no reason for anyone to have doubts about it.

Erdem: 
I would like to thank you very much for your detailed comments and opinions, which I am sure will be a very useful flow of information useful for both our people and the American people. Thank you again.